Jane Fonda (left) and Lily Tomlin in “Grace and Frankie”
(Conclusion)
LOS ANGELES—“This was sort of a therapy session,” Lily Tomlin quipped at the end of our interview with her and Jane Fonda. Our “therapy session” could have gone on and on and we would not have been bored.
Lily, 78, and Jane, 80, had wonderful stories to tell and interesting asides and revelations to each other. Their friendship, which has gone on for four decades, was deepened by their work together on Netflix’s comedy series, “Grace and Frankie.” They play two women who become unlikely buddies after their husbands (Martin Sheen and Sam Waterston) announce that they are in love and plan to get married.
Here are more excerpts from our conversation:
What’s unique about your friendship with each other?
Jane (J): Lily has qualities that are of particular interest to me. I am interested in how she is with her family—the living ones and the ones who have passed—and how she talks about them. I’ve rarely met anybody who has this big a heart as she does. Her empathy is so profound.
She grew up working class in Detroit, Michigan. She’s not in some elite bubble. She is totally connected to working people, everyday, average people. Yeah, she is loyal and she’s not a snob. She doesn’t need to hang out with famous, successful, rich people. I just love that, and it’s rare.
Lily (L): Jane is very innocent. She’s so tender. She’s like an 8-year-old girl in ballet class. She works harder. She just is going to make everything better. Whether it’s somebody with a cause that she can identify with, she will help and support. And she doesn’t mince her words. She’s direct, which is a bit awkward sometimes.
She’ll just be direct with somebody on the set like, “I don’t think you should wear your hair like that. Go over here, get Missy to cut your hair.” And the person has gnarly hair sticking all over the place.
She totally is invested in that. She’s been that way from her books. You read some of her books and you understand that. It was like a mantra. She was going to make things better from the time she was a child and it breaks my heart (she gets choked up). I’m sorry.
J: Lily gets so touched (she gets misty-eyed).
Do you still feel anxieties when you are shooting the show?
J: Mostly it’s the fear of being seen with no makeup on. There’s an episode in the fourth season where I take my makeup off. It was really hard for me to do that because I’ve always thought that if people saw me the way I really was, they wouldn’t care for me.
The show is quite groundbreaking with its older gay couple as the main characters.
L: All that has been indirect because it’s not like it was set out to be, like, we’re going to be political. It was like we had real characters. Marta (Kauffman) and Howard (Morris) were the show creators. They were determined to make the show real, funny and on point.
Were the characters of these older guys who were married and coming out as gay based on real stories?
L: No. I began looking for little items about that situation and I began to see more. I would cut them (news stories) out and send them to Marta. There would be like two women whose husbands fell in love with each other. I was stunned that it seemed to be somewhat prevalent.
J: There’s a national organization—I don’t know what it’s called. I was in Pasadena and a woman came up to me and said, “‘Grace and Frankie’ saved my sister’s life. Her husband left her after 40 years.” It was parallel to the show because he was gay and the sister wanted to kill herself.
Do you consult each other, like what to wear to an event that you are both attending?
J: We do consult each other. We talk to each other. And I have a stylist that sometimes works with Lily.
In what ways are you different?
J: She’s on her phone more than I am.
L: Oh no!
J: And she always keeps her phone on a speakerphone. I’m trying to learn my lines and she’s carrying on this loud conversation.
L: She’s very direct and she holds her phone like this (she shows how Jane keeps her straight posture on the phone).
J: I’m not on my phone nearly as much as you are.
L: And she’s dictating out loud, “I will be coming to the Waldorf Astoria. It’s very expensive there so we will go Dutch (laughs).”
What books do you both like to read?
L: She’s always giving me books related to a topic for an event that she wants me to go to and have something to do with her, like a fundraiser.
J: We worked together on an issue called “One Fair Wage,” trying to get workers in restaurants to earn at least a minimum wage so that they won’t be totally dependent on tips to survive.
We go to Michigan together to work on this issue because it’s going to be a ballot measure in November.
L: We talk about our immediate things, like what time I’m supposed to be at your house for supper and a fundraiser. And what I’m going to wear tonight, when I present you with the EMA (Environmental Media Association) award.
J: We present each other with a lot of awards. But I’m very interested in her partner, the other Jane (Wagner, Lily’s wife). Her Jane is Jane One. I’m Jane Two.
Does fame impede or facilitate the forming of friendship?
L: It’s an impediment to having real pals. Because you’ll be so busy—unless you’re friends with someone else in the business. You can’t reach out to that many people over and over again. They can sense that you’re there for them but I don’t think you can be there literally day after day and really help.
J: I think fame makes it easier. When you’re famous, you meet other famous people and many of them are extremely interesting. You want to become friends with them. I’m a little bit more superficial than Lily is and I’m not being funny. I’m not being coy. I have a lot of friends but it’s more lateral than vertical.
Can you say something that you learned about each other that surprised you?
J: Lily can get really angry. She has a temper.
L: I get over it in a snap.
What surprised you about Jane?
L: When we were doing “9 to 5,” every now and then, I’d see you twiddling your thumbs like this.
J: I’m still doing it.
L: Mostly, I discover something human and sweet about her.
J: When you spend a whole lot of time with somebody, including a spouse, usually it happens when you realize what you really don’t like about the person (laughs). I haven’t found that about Lily. All these years, and it’s been 40-some years, I can’t say that there’s anything that I don’t like about her.
L: That temper—you don’t like.
J: I don’t like it but I admire it because I get scared about losing my temper.
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